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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Oct 19, 2003 11:15pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

John,

What do you guys have in mind when it comes to adding MP3's to this site?

-MC

(not looking to start controversy, just want a heads up) actually I think you might end up losing some bands in the process but then you might also gain some as well... then again nothing might change..

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Poster: bleblanc Date: Oct 20, 2003 2:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

actually I think you might end up losing some bands in the process

I find this *highly* unlikely - simply because it's something that they can opt out of. If they don't want MP3's around, we can remove the download links on a per band basis.

-Brad (looking forward to the activation of this project so I can start sampling more bands without clearing space on my hard drive by the GB's)

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Oct 20, 2003 3:33am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I'd be more worried about losing support from uploaders and tapers than from the bands.

IMHO, I think you should also give uploaders/tapers the option to "opt out" of having their shows mp3'd.

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Poster: Erich Date: Oct 20, 2003 3:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I'd be more worried about losing support from uploaders and tapers than from the bands.

Ive said it before and i stick to it. If uploaders and tapers want to act immature about it, throw a tantrum, and "cut us off", then those are PEOPLE we're better off not dealing with, regardless of their generosity to the community.

IMHO, I think you should also give uploaders/tapers the option to "opt out" of having their shows mp3'd.

thats pretty ridiculous though. the tapers/uploaders dont own the tapes, regardless of what the sheeple in the community think. Its not up to them whether shows get MP3'd, never was, and never will be. the best they can do is educate people on how MP3s can damage the trading pool and set up lossy peremiters to make it easier for that not to happen.

This post was modified by Erich on 2003-10-20 10:57:45

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Oct 20, 2003 4:16am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I don't think that's an immature position to have. I'm sorry you feel that way.

I guess I just don't see the harm in what I'm proposing. Why *not* give them the option, I think that's a fair compromise if you ask me, and one in which everybody wins. Consider this, you can either

A.) Let the uploader choose whether to allow mp3s for that show.
or
B.) Simply not have that show in the archive at all.

Isn't having it in shn better than not having it at all?

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Poster: Erich Date: Oct 20, 2003 4:49am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I don't think that's an immature position to have. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Tapers have no rights which allow them to dictate how a recording is used. If you throw a tantrum about it when there are very definate guidlines that would prevent this sort of crap from getting out of hand, then its immature.

Back when hearlive.com was giving out free MP3 shows in '99, i could see where this would be a problem. weve had 4 years and multiple lossless music breakthroughs since then. What people are complaining about is similar to complaining about tape generation destrying the trading pool. Just make a new tape from the cd and get over it.

I guess I just don't see the harm in what I'm proposing. Why *not* give them the option, I think that's a fair compromise if you ask me, and one in which everybody wins. Consider this, you can either

A.) Let the uploader choose whether to allow mp3s for that show.
or
B.) Simply not have that show in the archive at all.

Isn't having it in shn better than not having it at all?


its not the uploaders choice. Its the bands. just like was mentioned, its transfering ownership by giving any type of veto power to a non band or representative, and thats no cool. that just feeds the power trip that many tapers already have when they dictate how we as traders and listeners can listen to music thats not even theirs.

and obviously SHN is better, but nothing is going to make those shns dissapear, and none of these shows will be MP3 only.

what youre basicaly saying, even if thats not your intent, is that tapers and uploaders have just as much a say as the band members or representatives. they dont, and theres really nothing you can say that changes that.

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Oct 20, 2003 5:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

"Tapers have no rights which allow them to dictate how a recording is used. If you throw a tantrum about it when there are very definate guidlines that would prevent this sort of crap from getting out of hand, then its immature."

I think you are missing the point. Nobody thinks that shns are going to go away. What I'm afraid of is this - people TRADING the mp3 versions because they are much faster to get and smaller to keep. That's something that you can't prevent, and that will dilute the trading pool for people who can't/don't download themselves because they very will might have no idea the show is mp3 sourced.

"its not the uploaders choice. Its the bands. just like was mentioned, its transfering ownership by giving any type of veto power to a non band or representative, and thats no cool. that just feeds the power trip that many tapers already have when they dictate how we as traders and listeners can listen to music thats not even theirs."

Again this is not my point. You are right, tapers do not have a right to say how you listen to your music. Frankly, I couldn't care less if you downloaded one of my shows and converted to 64 kbps mp3 in mono. My point is that I think a lot of people are simply going to decide not to upload their stuff, which they certainly have the right to do. It has nothing to do with "power tripping" and everything to do with preserving the trading pool. You may feel that this is a moot point. I feel otherwise, and I don't think my concerns are without merit. And I hardly thinks this makes my opinion immature.

Bottom line is that if the archive loses support from the people who upload the shows, EVERYBODY loses. I don't want to see that happen. I don't think anybody does.

This is all probably a moot point for me anyway, as I highly doubt any of the bands I tape/upload/download will allow mp3s of their music on this site, but I do enjoy the debate and I respect your opinion and others on the matter, even though it is vastly different from mine.

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Poster: bleblanc Date: Oct 20, 2003 4:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

IMHO, I think you should also give uploaders/tapers the option to "opt out" of having their shows mp3'd.

I don't like this idea because it is an indirect method of transferring ownership of the music from the band and to the taper - not something that will likely fly well.

If the band is cool with MP3's, the taper shouldn't have a veto over that decision. Taping is a luxury, not a right. This decision is not theirs to make.

I'd be more worried about losing support from uploaders and tapers than from the bands.

I agree with you, this is my biggest concern. However, in my opinion the benefits outweigh the potential loss. I'll be surprised if there are really THAT many tapers that care - afterall, like we mentioned before, the FLAC/SHN files are readily available for better sounding CD's, and the hordes of fans here will probably harass the tapers that do that to reconsider.

-Brad

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-10-20 11:21:04

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Poster: aroth01 Date: Oct 20, 2003 11:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

"If the band is cool with MP3's, the taper shouldn't have a veto over that decision. Taping is a luxury, not a right. This decision is not theirs to make."

You can talk all you want about tapers not having rights, but the bottom line is that on the tapers side, you are going to lose A LOT of high quality recordings. Most of the tapers with thousands of dollars of recording gear want no part of their shows being ripped to MP3. They won't upload here. I won't upload here. I think it completely ridiculous that you would bite the hand that feeds you.

But hey, have fun with those Fisher Price recordings that you'll get once the majority of the great tapers stop spreading their stuff. Nobody ever said they needed to send copies to the web (or to anyone for that matter). I'm in agreement with Alex Coluzzi and a lot of the other tapers and SHN/FLAC advocates, [*] you all, we'll hoard everything. If you want a high quality recording, go tape it yourself.


-Andrew



This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-10-21 06:11:40

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Poster: suspect Date: Oct 20, 2003 5:39am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

This is quite the battle and I can see both sides. I must say though, that even though we've "won the war" so to speak, there is no need to (to use the same analogy) open our defenses up to (lossless music) terrorists. This is silly. I understand that more and more of today's society is an instant gratification realm, however, you must realize that as much as you think that mp3's that are downloaded won't get spread through P2P clients such as Kazaa or other like garbage software, it will. Dirtying up the music pool 1% is dirtying it up too much.

I say that we make all of the bands answer the mp3 yes/no question. Then I say if they answer yes to the mp3 question, we ask the taper. If the taper says "no," we pull the taper's show...plain and simple. Tapers (self-included) don't spend thousand's of dollars on taping equipment, countless hours of tedious (yet satisfying) work such as setup, teardown, monitor levels during show, convert, track, and add setlists/show info. What is complete after all of that is a brilliant combination of blood, sweat, and tears from a band's hard work and blood, sweat, and tears from a taper's hard work and dedication. Only to watch his/her work turned into a lower quality product.

I also think you are understimating the amount of tapers who will no longer upload their copies of a show....take my word on this.

Finally, I think the default "decision" for a band should be NO MP3'S. I think it should be no until a band gives the okay. Kinda like how it is now with sharing. I also think that when permission is asked to host mp3's of a band, I believe the band should be fully informed that an INFERIOR quality of their music will be hosted and if they really feel they don't care about that, well then it's their loss. Please think about this carefully, it's a big step that's hard to undo.

Keep it real kids, keep it lossless,
...tom

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Poster: Erich Date: Oct 20, 2003 11:08pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

This is quite the battle and I can see both sides. I must say though, that even though we've "won the war" so to speak, there is no need to (to use the same analogy) open our defenses up to (lossless music) terrorists. This is silly. I understand that more and more of today's society is an instant gratification realm, however, you must realize that as much as you think that mp3's that are downloaded won't get spread through P2P clients such as Kazaa or other like garbage software, it will. Dirtying up the music pool 1% is dirtying it up too much.

As much as i see what youre saying, if you think that 1% isnt already there, youre also mistaken. Nothing is going to stop people from converting their cds to MP3s for their own use, or downloading from here and converting for their ipod. it will at least put those MP3s at a standard that people can get, leaving less room for [mess] ups that may get spread.

I say that we make all of the bands answer the mp3 yes/no question. Then I say if they answer yes to the mp3 question, we ask the taper. If the taper says "no," we pull the taper's show...plain and simple. Tapers (self-included) don't spend thousand's of dollars on taping equipment, countless hours of tedious (yet satisfying) work such as setup, teardown, monitor levels during show, convert, track, and add setlists/show info. What is complete after all of that is a brilliant combination of blood, sweat, and tears from a band's hard work and blood, sweat, and tears from a taper's hard work and dedication. Only to watch his/her work turned into a lower quality product.

Just cause I spend thousands of dollars working on my car doesnt give me the right to have a say on Hundai's next business move. Tapers dont have the right to dictate, it can be argued all you want, but thats how it is. As I mention in these examples, the Tim Reynolds trading community had the SHNs next to the MP3 on the official server when it was up, and we have no problems in the community from MP3 degridation. I cannot see how taking that mentality and expanding it with extra parameters will cause any other problems, especialy since people are delusional if they think it doesnt happen anyway.

I also think you are understimating the amount of tapers who will no longer upload their copies of a show....take my word on this.

They can no longer upload to the archive if they want, but the shows will get on anyway, trust me. they can stop taping if they want, but then that becomes their problem. If they feel that creating a system to expose more people to more music while maintaining a lossless aspect is that bad that they need to stop, then they can save their money and bitch a moan to themselves. Its ridiculous how eltist the taping HOBBY has become. you spend a lot of money and time to bring us quality recordings, and for that we're grateful, but it ends there. Tapers arent gods. theyre not official representatives. Theyre people with a cool hobby and thats really it.

Finally, I think the default "decision" for a band should be NO MP3'S. I think it should be no until a band gives the okay. Kinda like how it is now with sharing. I also think that when permission is asked to host mp3's of a band, I believe the band should be fully informed that an INFERIOR quality of their music will be hosted and if they really feel they don't care about that, well then it's their loss. Please think about this carefully, it's a big step that's hard to undo.

that seems to be the M.O. thats planned, to ask first before uploading to side on the side of caution. The archive is fully capable of telling the artists exactly their plans with MP3s and lossless things. As for not being able to undo it - Just look at what happened with DMB and the archive. its a flick of the wrist to undo anything. If you think it'll cause too many negative reprocussions that'll be obvious even if the MP3 sets are taken down, just remember that this stuff is being converted right now and no one can do anything about it except educate others.

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-10-21 06:08:32

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Poster: bleblanc Date: Oct 20, 2003 6:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I also think you are understimating the amount of tapers who will no longer upload their copies of a show....take my word on this.

I find this severely disappointing.

-Brad

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-10-20 13:57:00

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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Oct 20, 2003 7:47am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I find it disappointing that people have to insult tapers and sink to a low level when they don't get what they want.

I can state as a fact that there are already tapes being held off this archive because some tapers saw this MP3 thing coming.

I can also point out that when a taper puts in "Don't convert this show to MP3" or something like that. What that means is that they don't want you trading the show in anything other than SHN.

With that said.. I think its safe to say eventhough I don't want to see any MP3's here it will be a reality. So who is going to educate these downloaders not to trade these mp3 shows?
or how do you welcome people who feel overwhelmed when they see SHN and they don't know where to bgein?

We should educate FIRST shouldn't we?
Accomodating a small fraction of people should a last resort.

and LAST and certainly not least.. for all those who ever said that they can't hear the difference between SHN and MP3... wait till you hear some 24 bit.. if you can't hear the difference you need to get your ears checked!

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Poster: Erich Date: Oct 20, 2003 10:58pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I find it disappointing that people have to insult tapers and sink to a low level when they don't get what they want.

If youre refering to my stance on tapers, or even if youre not, i need to point out that its just as insulting to be treated as if i owe something to the taper and therefor have to abide by THEIR rules. If you want to go straight to the irony of a comment like this, you can chalk up everyone following all these tapers "rules" because they hold the tapes. People follow these directions in FEAR that these taper gods are going to take away their precious tapes, and it seems like that point come up in this thread as well. So Id personaly rather not sink to a level of lemingdom just for a few recordings when I can use my own head and not polute the trading pool.

I can state as a fact that there are already tapes being held off this archive because some tapers saw this MP3 thing coming.

if the taper isnt releasing the tape due to those reasons, it's stupid. What hes doing is preventing people from hearing a recording just because this particular site decides to publicly do what people are already doing. If the tape is released and theyre just not uploading it, fine, whatever, but it'll be up here when someone else decides they want to see it up here.

I can also point out that when a taper puts in "Don't convert this show to MP3" or something like that. What that means is that they don't want you trading the show in anything other than SHN.

And when I say a taper doesnt have the right to tell me what to do, that means exactly what it means. Im not going to sit here and [be submissive- moderator edit of metaphor] just cause they "said so". Im not going to send MP3s durring a trade, but im going to encode, download, and share when the situation calls for its ease.

Im a lossless all the way person, but at least i understand that people arent ALL like that. Thats evident in the Legal MP3 Technology crusade thats happening now with the likes of iTunes. People dont understand that these albums theyre buying and these cds that theyre making are crap, and they'll never be as good as the store bought discs. Im not advocating this place turn into a free version of that bs, and that can be worked on via whatever disclaimer the archive sees necessary for the MP3 shows.

With that said.. I think its safe to say eventhough I don't want to see any MP3's here it will be a reality. So who is going to educate these downloaders not to trade these mp3 shows?
or how do you welcome people who feel overwhelmed when they see SHN and they don't know where to bgein?

We should educate FIRST shouldn't we?
Accomodating a small fraction of people should a last resort.


I do agree with this. I think that the proper documentation should be present with all MP3s and that all downloaders must have obvious links and warnings that state that these recordings should not be traded as audio discs due to lack of proper quality, and that they should stick to the lossless ones for that. That i guess is going to be taken on a situational basis.

and LAST and certainly not least.. for all those who ever said that they can't hear the difference between SHN and MP3... wait till you hear some 24 bit.. if you can't hear the difference you need to get your ears checked!

... no argument there.

This post was modified by Erich on 2003-10-20 16:43:52

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-10-21 05:58:21

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Poster: Diana Hamilton Date: Oct 20, 2003 11:00pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Civility, please

Ahem, I just removed a flame-only thread hanging from this reply. I see there may be others elsewhere here...

Hotheads, please tone it down, and keep it clean- the more foul language you post, the more it engenders. That greatly distracts from any substantive discussion.

Please keep the tone at the level you would find in a public library. If I recall, Brewster requested the same some months back.

Other posts may be moderated/removed from this sprawling exchange as warranted.

Thanks!

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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Oct 21, 2003 4:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Civility, please

its cool.. we obviously arent going to see eye to eye with one another.. but I dont think the mp3 supporters or the SHN supporters are losing sleep over this :-)

actually I'm going after every free legal advice website I can find to see if I can get some good legal answers to some questions that have come up here.. so to some it might seem as though we are "hot headed" but we are actually learning things in the process. And as Brewster said I hope we can all come to some sort of agreement.

Anyone know a good mediator who would be willing to work for free? :-)

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Poster: bleblanc Date: Oct 21, 2003 6:36am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Civility, please

And as Brewster said I hope we can all come to some sort of agreement.

Amen. That would be relieving and refreshing. :)

-Brad

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-10-21 13:36:53

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Poster: bleblanc Date: Oct 20, 2003 12:11pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I find it disappointing that people have to insult tapers and sink to a low level when they don't get what they want.

If that comment was directed to me, please reread my posts - nobody was insulted, I didn't make any attempt to do so.

I express my disappointment from the fact that some of the tapers (note, I said some) are more concerned with the format Joe Schmo uses to listen to their pull than they are with actually getting the music out like the band hopes they will. It just seems like some of them don't spend 5 minutes trying to understand why the band they are recording gave them permission to do so.

When taping was first introduced, it wasn't a hobby based on "Lossless" and "Quality". (Yes, lossless sounds better than Lossy, this we all know). It was based on live music being better than studio, and spreading it because, plain and simple, we all love it that way. That is still the plan when band's make the decision today to allow us to tape their shows. They are hoping that more folks will give it a shot, that you will pass it out to anyone that wants it, and that they will sell more tickets in doing so. Am I wrong? Would the bands you listen to here disallow all taping of their shows if they found out you were using MP3's? No, and you'll have a hard time convincing me otherwise.

I can state as a fact that there are already tapes being held off this archive because some tapers saw this MP3 thing coming.

And I can state for a fact that there are tons of tapers just waiting to embrace yet another user friendly feature. There will be no lack of String Cheese uploads in this collection, because plain and simple, most of them are just happy for the bandwidth to share their work - which like Tom mentions above - is their pride and joy.

I can also point out that when a taper puts in "Don't convert this show to MP3" or something like that. What that means is that they don't want you trading the show in anything other than SHN.

I wish the folks that put statements like this in their info files would change their wording then...

Accomodating a small fraction of people should a last resort.

We accomodated the small faction in the first place - those that only deal with Lossless stuff.

I have about 15 friends that love the whole taping/trading scene, but they spend all their time on nugs.net (big MP3 site) because they don't care one ounce about lossless vs. lossy, and you aren't EVER going to change their mind. All they care about is convenience, so they won't ever download a single show from this website because it isn't convenient to wait 2 hours to do it. I've spent hours preaching the benefits of it, but all they do is nod and smile, and then go back to the MP3 sites for their music. They won't ever have a music list online, and they won't ever mail CD's to some guy they don't know so he will burn them a show. I would love to bring them to the collection here someday, but the "Lossless Only" isn't what they're looking for.

Yes, they want the instant gratification. Are they going to be pissed about the outcome of this discussion? Nope. Are they going to bug the tapers that decide to cutoff the LMA to start uploading their shows again? Nope. Will they someday come around to lossless music? Maybe, but the downloads will need to take less than 3 minutes/song and the typical computer hard drive will need to be able to hold 10,000 of them before they do. Until that is the case, they won't stop here and the collection won't interest them. THAT is why I petition for the MP3's in addition to the Lossless. Because these friends of mine don't have the patience to learn how to use this stuff, but there's a lot of music this site could turn them on to.

As far as I'm concerned, *We Purists* that trade lossless only are the minority in this discussion. For every 1 of us with a CD list online, there are about 5 that don't have one and probably never will. All they want is an easy way to download and enjoy the music - that's where it all began - and this collection would rock as a new resource to do that. Putting MP3 copies in their hands isn't going to pollute the trading pool, because they don't trade - but it will expose these bands to a much broader base of fans, which is EXACTLY why 95% of them allow you to do it. Try to think about that the next time you throw up your micstand at a show.

I find it disappointing that people have to insult tapers and sink to a low level when they don't get what they want.

This is more of an issue than a few of us getting what we want - it's whether or not we want to open the doors to a lot more users here. Keeping it lossless limits the user base to those dedicated and interested enough to learn how to use the tools. Adding MP3's make it more accessible, which is in line with the goal of the Internet Archive in the first place. You, I, and likely every person reading this thread know how much better the SHN and FLAC files sound. The primary goal of this site won't change (archive lossless recordings). We just want to make the music available to other users.

-Brad

Disclaimer: In posting the above, no attempt was made to offend or insult anyone. :)

This post was modified by bleblanc57 on 2003-10-20 19:11:21

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Poster: Diana Hamilton Date: Oct 20, 2003 11:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

This is more of an issue than a few of us getting what we want - it's whether or not we want to open the doors to a lot more users here. Keeping it lossless limits the user base to those dedicated and interested enough to learn how to use the tools. Adding MP3's make it more accessible, which is in line with the goal of the Internet Archive in the first place.

Replace the word "lossless" in Brad's paragraph with "broadband", and "dedicated and interested enough to learn how to use the tools" with "lucky enough to have high speed internet in their area" and you have yet another good argument for opening the doors of this public library a little wider for people. Dialup listeners will now be able to stop by and try a little something they've never heard. :)

No matter what the speed increases at the archive's end, that has not been able to happen here before.

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-10-20 18:29:44

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Oct 20, 2003 6:15am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

Exactly. Well said.

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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Oct 20, 2003 6:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

well said Tom... no joke with the tapers.. more than not dont like mp3..

it really should be SHN first..and ONLY if a band requests it should they get their stuff in MP3.. otherwise they system works.. and as they say

IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT!

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Poster: thoman8r Date: Oct 20, 2003 4:29am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I guess you could construe it in that way, but I didn't mean to imply any transfer of ownership. I just don't see how losing those shows completely is preferable.

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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Oct 20, 2003 5:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

good point.. I also think this will totally confuse new users ... you want to have 2 shows side by side.. and of course any newbie who doesn't know that mp3 is really compressed is going to take that over SHN because they don't want to have to wait the extra hour or two.. as it is there are only a handful of fans bases outside of the jamband scene that have embraced SHN or Flac and stay away from MP3.. this will only fuel the fire under the mp3 fanatics and make it even harder to get people to embrace high quality file formats.

Why are we going backwards when we should be marching on to more 24 bit recordings!!

last but not least... who in their right mind would "ARCHIVE" mp3 shows? (if your answer is no one then why is this idea even being entertained)

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Poster: simon c Date: Oct 20, 2003 5:20am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

As a non-etree user, but a heavy user of the rest of the Internet Archive, I can say that i've never downloaded a gig from the Etree archives, just because they're far too large in size for me, although SHN is an excellent archival format.

Personally, I look forward to some MP3 recordings being available, because then I may be motivated to check out bands I haven't otherwise heard of - MP3s mean you can stream, too, which would be amazing. I also think that making MP3s available would expand the Etree user base past collectors, and more towards listeners. IMHO this can only be a good thing.

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Poster: Diana Hamilton Date: Oct 20, 2003 5:59am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I may be motivated to check out bands I haven't otherwise heard of

Right on, I've noticed this difference for me recently with BitTorrent and then the recent increases in speed here: Much faster download means much more inclination to try unknown things randomly (and then get turned on :) ).

MP3s mean you can stream, too, which would be amazing.

The Archive would probably want to avoid streaming music- wouldn't that make it an internet broadcaster, and it'd have to pay broadcasting royalties? A whole weird area there, I gather...

This post was modified by hamilton on 2003-10-20 12:59:06

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Poster: Sinjin Date: Oct 20, 2003 12:27am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

This may be niave, but I would hope that the archive would pick up more bands than it would lose...it seems possible that if a band wanted to qualify that they could be on the archive, but not not in mp3 format, that it could be accomodated...for bands that don't care, mp3 away! Just a thought...

Sinj

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Poster: TheWillum Date: Oct 20, 2003 1:02am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

I think mp3's would be good, it would allow many more people who can't figure out the shn>wav process to get in on the fun.

But of course it should be entirely at the bands discression wether or not to allow mp3's of their shows.

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Poster: mst934 Date: Oct 21, 2003 6:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

"I think mp3's would be good, it would allow many more people who can't figure out the shn>wav process to get in on the fun."

Is this supposed to be some kind of twisted joke? It's not like learing about SHN's is some sort of test, or difficult like the SAT's. If you can sit down for 5 minutes, you can figgure out how to convert, and the basic idea of how .shn works. If you can't take those 5 minutes to learn something new, you are just a damn lazy sloth. From what I'm gathering from most ALL of tapers that I know, we don't see a problem making sample clips from shows. This would allow the user to to pick his/her favorite recordings. But it's just so plain and simple to see, once you allow full .mp3 shows to be downloaded, they will be traded around the community. Period. It just takes one person to trade a .mp3 show, then for two people to acquire the show, and so on and so on. Please think about some issuses that have been raised thus far.

Mark Terry
taperssection.com

This post was modified by mst934 on 2003-10-21 13:13:39

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Poster: Diana Hamilton Date: Oct 21, 2003 6:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

Redirect:http://archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=9554

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Poster: Diana Hamilton Date: Oct 20, 2003 3:57am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

So, I'm guessing Funnbaggz will be OK with it? :)

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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Oct 20, 2003 1:39am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

Your sure its not just people being lazy and wanting things as easy as possible?..rather than they can't actually figure out how to go from SHN to WAV or vice versa. I'm willing to bet its the first one.

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Poster: Erich Date: Oct 20, 2003 3:49am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

Your sure its not just people being lazy and wanting things as easy as possible?..rather than they can't actually figure out how to go from SHN to WAV or vice versa. I'm willing to bet its the first one.

Im willing to bet youre unfamiliar with the concept of time investment and budgeting. If my assumption is off base, then im also willing to bet yours is as well.

Obviously there are going to be lazy people who want things quicker. There are also going to be people who dont understand things and just dont have the ability to figure it out. There are also going to be the people that dont have the time to invest downloading a show that they dont even know if they'll like or not.

actually I think you might end up losing some bands in the process...

As was mentioned, the band is able to opt out, simple as that. If you think a band will completly opt out because of this addition, youre sadly mistaken.

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Poster: Jonathan Aizen Date: Oct 20, 2003 1:00am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

The idea is to create MP3s for every concert in the LMA, except for bands that have specifically asked for no MP3s.

Bands can always change their minds as well, and we'll go with that.

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Poster: dgrayshn Date: Oct 20, 2003 1:28am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

full shows in mp3 format? :/

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Poster: GrooveTV Date: Oct 20, 2003 2:18am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

This is a FANTASTIC idea. As others mentioned, I hope the scripts can make solid MP3s with complete ID tags.

Look, I'm as much as a lossless audio zealot as the rest of you. I switched to DAT back in '93, realizing the bennies of clones vs. copies. And I fully understand the risk of "polluting the gene pool" when a lossy version gets converted back to WAV.

But guys, WE WON the war. The community developed standards that work. Centralized MD5 database. Consistent use of checksums.

Fact is, if a lossless copy of a show is in the Internet Archive, there is ZERO risk of that show's bits being "polluted" by MP3s circulating. Those in the know can always come back here for a clean source. Those not in the know, well, whatever. Some people don't care about lossless or slight quality degregation, and that's their choice.

I'm baffled by people who still flog the whole "no MP3 no MP3 no MP3" garbage. The war is over and lossless won. Take that energy and channel it into educating people about the reasons and methods to go lossless.

And keep on sharing the groove!

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Poster: bleblanc Date: Oct 20, 2003 2:27am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: mp3's of shows in the archive

Fact is, if a lossless copy of a show is in the Internet Archive, there is ZERO risk of that show's bits being "polluted" by MP3s circulating. Those in the know can always come back here for a clean source. Those not in the know, well, whatever.

Well said!

-Brad